Minutes
Town of Greenfield
Greenfield Town Offices, 7 Sawmill Road Greenfield, NH
Selectmen’s Meeting Minutes
Thursday, January 05, 2012 – 6:30 pm
Board of Selectmen: Chairman, Aaron Kullgren; Selectwoman, Karen Day; Selectman, Robert Wimpory
Staff: Town Administrator Patt,
Public: Myron Steere, Peter Hopkins, John Gryval,~Clifford & Catherine Shaw, Andrew and Katherine Heck,
Neal and Agneta. Brown, Gene Mitchell, Mike and Laura Merzi, Donna Smith, Kevin O'Connell, Deb Davidson, Bob Marshall, Norm Nickerson, Desire Belmore, Beverly Belmore, Al Burtt, Dee Sleeper, Patricia LaPree, Kelly Hayden-Wimpory, Simon Greensill, John Matthias, Diane Boilard, Lori Weeks, Jarvis Adams, Gary and Carol Smith, Ashley Saari, Monadnock Ledger
The meeting was called to order at 6:30 PM by Chairman Aaron Kullgren.
Documents for Approval/Review/Signature
The Selectmen reviewed and signed the following items:
A/P Invoices
Payroll Check Manifest / Checks
Approval of Selectman’s Minutes of December 29
Meridian Proposal – Revised
Letter from Auditors to LGC
Letter from Auditors to Primex
6:30 PM: Document Signing and Review of Correspondence
The Board of Selectmen reviewed correspondence and signed documents.
7:00 PM Recycling Center – “Pay Per Throw”
This meeting was rescheduled for January 12th. Instead, a discussion of the previous meeting’s highway budget meeting took place, covering the proposed use of fund balance to offset road reconstruction. The 2011 remainder after expenditures will add to fund balance, however it will not be as much as was estimated by the Chair in the previous meeting. The remainder is conservatively on track to come in at approximately $60,000-$70,000.
8:00 PM Non-Public Meeting Resident Request:
At 8:00 PM Selectman Chairman Kullgren made a motion to go into non-public session at the request of a residents Desire Belmore and Beverly Belmore under RSA 91-A:3 II c) Reputation. Selectman Wimpory seconded. The motion passed unanimously 3-0. The Selectmen entered into a non-public session. At 8:38 PM Selectmen Kullgren motioned to end the session and to seal the minutes. Selectwoman Day seconded the motion, which passed unanimously. It was noted that no decision was made during the meeting. It was also noted that a motion to seal the minutes had been taken and passed 3-0.
8:30 PM Recycling Center Equipment Review and Discussion
The Recycling Center Equipment meeting opened at 8:40 PM. Chairman Kullgren asked which residents had called the meeting originally; the Administrator replied that the meeting time was originally set as part of a request by several residents who visited the town hall earlier that week. The residents were Andrew Heck, Myron Steere, Donna Smith, and Norm Nickerson. The Chair indicated that the Board would recognize these individuals first and then open the meeting to the other residents that were in attendance.
The first person recognized to speak was Donna Smith. Mrs. Smith had two items to speak to originally. The first was the number of non-public meetings that the Board had held. She said that by her count from the minutes, the Board had held sixteen non-public sessions in the last three months. While it was understood that some non-publics were necessary when hiring new employees, the number of non-public meetings was a concern and creates the perception that things are being handled behind closed doors. In addition the meetings are not held at the end of the meeting, they occur during the middle or at the beginning and people who attend the meetings are forced to leave the room and wait outside. The other issue was that the past minutes of the meetings do not have a decision noted or what the action was.
Mrs. Smith used a non-public meeting entry from a meeting with Katherine Heck as an example. Mrs. Smith suggested that there be fewer non-publics or bunch the non-public meetings together.
Gene Mitchell was recognized. Mr. Mitchell supports the idea that there have been too many non-public sessions. Secondly he would like more clarity in the minutes. There have been times when the minutes carried no details about the discussion and this added to the perception that actions were taken without informing the public.
Andrew Heck indicated he was present to speak to the recent decision by the Board to upgrade the Skid Steer. Mr. Heck said he was disappointed at the timing of the meeting (when the decision took place) as it was just after Christmas. In addition there had been a meeting in September when this issue had been discussed at length. Mr. Heck asked if Supervisor Burgess had attended the refresher course training that had been decided in the previous meetings. Chairman Kullgren indicated that the Bobcat dealership didn’t know anything about the additional training that they were supposed to give Ms. Burgess when she asked to schedule it. Mr. Heck then outlined the specifications of the S130, which has weighted tires. The S130, which is rated for 1300 lbs, with weighted tires can handle 1800 pounds, and,
even when the pallet fork weight is subtracted, the capacity of the equipment is still greater than the weight of the cardboard bales, which are noted in the minutes as being 1200 lbs. Mr. Heck said he spoke to a person at a Bobcat dealership in NJ and the salesman said that the S130 is the correct machine. He said the salesman in NJ didn’t try to upsell him to a larger machine because he said, “why would I try to sell you a machine that’s more than you need?” Mr. Heck asked why the Board hadn’t called a neutral third party instead of getting letters from professors. Mr. Heck indicated he was satisfied that the S130 was the correct machine.
Chairman Kullgren asked Selectwoman Day for a rebuttal. Selectwoman Day described her conversations with a number of people. After talking to several people, including the manufacturer’s representative in North Dakota that specifically works with municipalities, she received the manufacturer’s pallet fork specification tables. This hadn’t been part of the original information that the Town had relied on for their decision. The specification sheet showed the pallet fork load rating at 770 lbs. and everyone that she talked to including the manufacturer questioned the use of the current machine for lifting 1100 to 1200 lb bales at the Recycling Center. The lifting capacity was not as originally suggested but lower than the amount required to handle the large bales of cardboard due to using
pallet forks.
Myron Steere was recognized. Mr. Steere noted that the forks were the same for either machine. He asked why the forks on the S130 did not meet the requirements at the Center. Selectwoman Day said that it is the combination of the model of loader and the use of pallet forks that govern the pallet fork load rating not the physically strength of the forks.
Selectman Wimpory was asked by the Chair to address the questions about the specifications. Selectman Wimpory said that there is a liability issue at the town level. This was shown to the Board by the manufacture’s specifications after the Board contacted Bobcat of North Dakota. Selectman Wimpory indicated that he agreed with members of the audience who felt that the S130 could handle the tasks at the Recycling Center. He asked the residents to understand that he feels the same way that many of them feel. However, the Town as a municipality has to take definitive action in the face of liability risk that a person or a private company might not take. If this were his equipment he would not have an issue running the machine on his property or for his business. The Town cannot operate in the same manner
as private parties, who are solely responsible for their actions. In a municipal setting, everyone in town is at risk if there were an incident.
Clifford Shaw asked if the machine was taken out of service. The Board answered that the Recycling Center was not using the machine for tasks where the rated operating capacity was at issue.
Kevin O’Connell asked if the Town used the same vendor for the upgrade? The Board answered that the NH Bobcat Dealer has an excellent municipal discount provided by the manufacturer that helped keep the cost down.
Pat LaPree was recognized and asked if the Center could make smaller bales of cardboard. Selectman Wimpory explained that the Board had researched the issue and that it had a letter indicating that there may not be an off-take vendor available for smaller bales. If there were a vendor willing to take smaller bales it would likely be at a much lower rate than what we are earning today.
John Matthias stood after being recognized by the Chair. Mr. Matthias spoke in “praise of Carol” and that he was happy with the work she was doing. He said that the Board had done its homework and he appreciated that they had made the decision they did. Mr. Matthias identified himself as the person who wrote a letter to the Selectmen indicating his concern about the S130 and his support for the Center Supervisor. Mr. Matthias said that when you see the smaller machine bobbing around, , its clear that the equipment is undersized and urged people not to blame the issue at hand on Supervisor Burgess. Selectman Wimpory stated in response that the issue is strictly a liability issue and not an issue about the Supervisor. Mr. Matthias went on to say that you could get numbers on the specifications
from any number of people. But when you have to stack the bales three high you need equipment that can do that job. When you have snow and ice the small machine can’t do the job.
Neal Brown was recognized. Mr. Brown stated that he would like to add to what Mr. Matthias said about the equipment. He attended the demo of the S130 and S185 that were brought out to the Recycling Center by the NH dealer. He said it was clear that the larger machine had a much easier time of dealing with the tasks at the Center. It was a “no brainer at the demo”. The smaller machine wasn’t up to the job.
Edith “Dee” Sleeper was recognized and asked if the operator was trained. She asked how we were going to guarantee that she can use the equipment. Chairman Kullgren said that the operators have 100% certification at the Center.
Al Burtt was recognized by the Chairman next. Mr. Burtt said that he wasn’t exactly sure what the issue was and had attended to ask the Board “what is going on?” Mr. Burtt went on to say that all that he had heard was rumor and telephone calls. He asked the Board to explain the issue at hand. Selectman Wimpory gave a brief description of the Board’s recognition of a potential liability issue with the current piece of equipment. Selectman Wimpory indicated that they had the opportunity to relieve the Town of the liability issue with leftover monies in the Recycling Center budget and not use tax dollars. The Board decided to use monies left over in 2011 to upgrade the current S130 for an S185, which was the piece of equipment originally suggested by the NH dealership. Mr. Burtt
rebutted that the original warrant article had been voted as a $20,000 dollar not to exceed figure. Selectman Wimpory said that the original warrant was satisfied and the purchase that satisfied the warrant did not exceed the warrant article figure. Mr. Burtt said that he was tired of the Town continuing to have issues like this and even though he had voted against the Town Administrator position he hoped that the position, now that it was filled, would help prevent these types of issues in the future. Mr. Burtt closed by asking when the new piece of equipment was due to be onsite. The Board indicated that they did not know at this time what the timeframe for delivery would be.
Myron Steere was recognized and he asked what was the Recycling Center going to do without a piece of equipment. He said the forklift that was still at the center was reported to not have any brakes. The Board indicated that if the forklift wasn’t safe then it wouldn’t be used.
Debra Davidson was recognized and asked how many hours the machine has run. The answer of 60.3 hours in eight months was supplied by Donna Smith.
Gene Mitchell stood after being recognized. Mr. Mitchell described the load distribution of weight that is carried on the forks of forklifts and bobcats. He indicated he had used both and shared his experience with the audience as background to his comments. He asked who it was that said the equipment at the Center was a risk. Selectman Wimpory indicated that the Town’s insurance company, which provides insurance through a risk management pool had voiced its concerns to the Town in a letter. Selectman Wimpory said that if we turn a blind eye to the question of liability and we have an incident it will be very difficult for the Town. Mr. Mitchell rebutted that he had significant experience with his own warehouse equipment and listed his reasons why he wouldn’t make a change if this were his own
equipment. Mr. Wimpory said that he agreed with him but that a municipal body was different and that didn’t mean that it was prudent to ignore the liability issue.
Bob Marshall was recognized and he asked why wouldn’t the dealership take the Bobcat back? It was explained by the Board that this was an issue that had evolved over the course of the year and now the equipment was used, so any trade-in would have to take into consideration the number of months and hours on the machine. Earlier in the year there was an offer to take the machine in straight trade but that time had passed. Mr. Marshall asked what would the dealership recommend and why did this happen. The Board indicated that they had received a letter from Bobcat of NH and that they had originally recommended the larger S185.
Donna Smith asked if she could read the letter from the dealer aloud to benefit the rest of the audience. The body of the July 1st, 2011 letter was read aloud:
“Bobcat of New Hampshire recommended that the town purchase an S185 Skid Steer Loader when we originally spoke to you. Due to the budget of $20,000 it was not possible to purchase the machine we recommended. However we could sell an S130 Skid Steer Loader to you and meet your budget. As a result Bobcat of New Hampshire brought an S130 Skid Steer Loader out for you to demonstrate to ensure that it would do the job. After the demonstration the town purchased the machine.”
Mrs. Smith repeated the fourth line and stated with emphasis that the letter said that the S130 Skid Steer would do the job. She went on to state that she wanted a document from the manufacturer that proved that the S130 was the wrong machine and wouldn’t do the job.
Laura Merzi was recognized and asked for a summary of the demonstrations (there had been two; one prior to purchase of the S185 & S130 and another after purchase of the S130). Mrs. Merzi asked when did the demo’s happen and who attended the demos. It was noted in response that of the original people involved in the demo that the only person in the room was Mr. Nickerson. Mrs. Merzi said that was of concern.
Gene Mitchell was recognized and stood to say that it was important to recognize that one had to be careful of academics. Practical knowledge was invaluable around machinery. Mr. Mitchell had extensive experience with equipment. He had a copy of the letter from the insurance company and didn’t see anything in it. In response the Administrator explained that the conversation about the equipment was now in the arena of risk management. Beyond the question of the specifications, of which there appeared to be varying opinions, the issue before the Town was now in the realm of risk identification and putting decisions on record that would limit future liability. The difficulty in determining what the Town could rely on was made difficult in this gray area because it was very unlikely that the Board could
get a letter from the manufacturer or the dealer stating that the equipment wasn’t suitable for certain tasks.
Donna Smith emphasized that the Board didn’t have proof that the current equipment was an issue.
Kevin O’Connell was recognized and said that if the issue is risk assessment/risk identification, what was the risk of the machine tipping? If you run the machine backwards with a heavy load (he stated that you shouldn’t run the machine forward if you were carrying a heavy weight) what was the risk of tipping?
Gene Mitchell went on to say that if you put someone in an excavator they wouldn’t feel safe unless they know it feels the way it does and were comfortable with it. In the same way how can we be sure that the Supervisor is comfortable with the machine? Mr. Mitchell used a story about OSHA regulations to make the point that there are instances when organizations create seemingly contradictory regulations, which don’t stand up to common sense.
Debra Davidson was recognized and she asked what the estimated date of arrival was? She then asked if we are going to use the forklift to load the bales. Selectman Wimpory said that they weren’t aware of the due date just yet and that the forklift would not be used unless it was safe.
Myron Steere was recognized. Mr. Steere asked why didn’t the Board wait and go to Town meeting? He felt that it was likely that the Town would vote for the upgrade given the concerns. The Board replied that they were able to use funds left over in the Recycling Center budget and felt that was a better solution than to have to use tax dollars at Town Meeting.
Al Burtt asked what the cost of the trade-in was and said he hoped against hope we not do this again. He said that if they had waited to go to Town meeting the leftover funds from the Recycling Center would have gone into the general fund and could have been used in 2012.
Donna Smith asked if the Board could verify what happened since the September time frame. Mrs. Smith wanted the Board to explain why the Board had changed its mind since September, when the vote was two votes no and one vote yes against upgrading.
Gene Mitchell said that he was fine with what the Selectmen did but suggested that they should get the information out. Mr. Mitchell said its not what the Board did but the perception of how things happen. He went on to say that the Board should get the information out in advance and “beat them to the punch”.
Chairman Kullgren said that the Board had weighed the risks, and over time more information became available. He went on to say that the Town had elected each Selectperson and charged them with doing what is prudent. He stated that there has been no ill intent in their decision-making. After weighing the issue over a long period of time and examining information that was made available to them over the duration of 2011 he was satisfied that the Board had made the right decision. They had done their best, which is what the voters had wanted them to do.
John Matthias was recognized and stood to say that he had felt a responsibility to send the letter he did to the Board highlighting his concerns about the current equipment. He said he felt the recent decision was a levelheaded decision by the Board and he has total respect and confidence in the Board’s decision. Mr. Matthias went on to say that he feels the Board “went in the right direction and from more information”. He said that it was a solid decision and that he respects the decision. He went on to say the he was 100% behind the Board.
Katherine Heck was recognized and said that she wanted to comment on the non-public meetings issue. She said that she enjoyed having more information in the recent minutes and, that while “it was six tedious pages,” appreciated that the minutes when the decision was made, were six pages long. She suggested that the Board might be pro-active and adopt more detailed copies of the minutes. This could help alleviate concerns such as the ones stated earlier in the meeting. She felt that providing a lot of information in the minutes was helpful to people who can’t make the meetings. On the non-public minutes she said that there are instances when decisions were reached in the meeting as there had been in her meeting used as an example earlier, which were not correctly noted in the public
portion of the minutes.
Selectman Wimpory responded about the issue of the non-public minutes by saying he obviously couldn’t go into any details about what decisions had been made, as there has to be strict adherence to the law.
Peter Hopkins asked to be recognized and said that in certain instances he was aware of 3-4 non-public sessions where it should have been noted in the public session to seal the minutes. That is that the vote to seal the minutes should be noted in the public session so that it could be recorded. He gave an example of another issue with minutes in October where there was a session that appeared to be a negotiation over a sale of property that happened in non-public session. Chairman Kullgren said that the non-public minutes would be reviewed and any corrections would be recorded.
Myron Steere was recognized and asked if the Board would consider putting the decision regarding the Skid Steer on the warrant for Town Meeting and put it to a vote at Town Meeting.
Norm Nickerson said that the decision does seem to be a last minute effort. It appears to be in a gray area. He said he doesn’t think anything was done wrong but the bottom line is that we have to be safe. How things are perceived – “it doesn’t look good the way it happened”. Mr. Nickerson recommended that the Board compose a letter to the town and explain the situation. He felt that the letter would encompass the idea that “this is what we have to do and we stepped up to the plate”. This would alleviate issues with people. He went on to say that he believes the operator has to get comfortable with the machine.
Diane Boilard was recognized. She said that she was really impressed with the effort that the Board put into the decision and that she really appreciated everything the Board has done on behalf of the Town. She said it was clear to her that the Board had already considered all the questions that the residents were asking. She closed by saying “I thank you very much for all you have done”.
Bob Marshall was recognized and stood to say that he agrees with Mr. Nickerson but doesn’t think you need to send a letter to the town. We could put a paragraph in the Town Report. Mr. Marshall said that the best thing is to learn from our mistakes and that “we have learned a lot tonight and can put this to bed and prepare for a difficult Town Meeting.
Selectman Chair Kullgren began to wrap up the conversation. He indicated that he was feeling that the Board had been insufficient in communication. He said that the Board has been so focused on projects and not as focused on communication. He went on to say that the prudent use of tax dollars crosses over into many areas, such as road construction, which he anticipated would be an important discussion at Town Meeting. He raised the question of how do we fund roads in town where just 30% of the roads would cost us $3 Million? How do we afford a fire truck and how do we deal with other issues that will help solve for the needs of the town.
Donna Smith asked if Supervisor Burgess would be trained on the S185? She asked if Burgess had been in an S185. Selectman Wimpory stated that if any employee cannot do the job for which they have been hired then the next action would obviously flow from that. Mrs. Smith said that the Board should “get the minutes out there”. Mrs. Heck explained that while the Board had put in the previous minutes that they had scheduled the review of the Skid Steer those minutes didn’t get approved and posted until after the decision was made. She had to explain the process to several people so they understood the process behind posting the minutes. She suggested that the Board should try another method of posting important meetings so that people would understand to attend.
As the meeting ended Simon Greensil introduced himself. Mr. Greensil is visiting with friends and is from Scotland. When asked his thoughts on the meeting, Mr. Greensil exclaimed its “Amazing”. In his area of Scotland they don’t have any say over which roads get built or what machinery is purchased. He thought the meeting was fantastic and was really enthusiastic about how people were involved and so passionate about the meeting.
Discussion and Schedule for January 12
The Board reviewed the points that were raised in the Recycling Center meeting. The Board also reviewed the vacation schedule and asked the Administrator to look at the non-public meeting minutes for corrections and to advise of any requests for vacation carry-over.
Adjournment
Kullgren moved to adjourn the meeting. Day seconded. The motion carried unanimously.
The meeting adjourned at 11:37 PM
Respectfully Submitted:
Aaron Patt
Town Administrator
The minutes are final when approved and signed by the Board of Selectmen. A signed copy is on file in the Selectmen’s minutes.
_______________________ ________________________ ______________________
Aaron Kullgren, Chairman Robert Wimpory, Selectman Karen Day, Selectwoman
| 
